Fwd: Zope Digest, Vol 125, Issue 1

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Fwd: Zope Digest, Vol 125, Issue 1

Yuri-11
Una discussione interessante su Zope :-)


-------- Messaggio Inoltrato --------
Oggetto: Zope Digest, Vol 125, Issue 1
Data: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 12:00:01 +0100
Mittente: [hidden email]
Rispondi-a: [hidden email]
A: [hidden email]



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Today's Topics:

    1. Zope2 - pro/contra (Sebastian T?nzer)
    2. Re: Zope2 - pro/contra (Niels Dettenbach)
    3. Re: Zope2 - pro/contra (Bahman Movaqar)
    4. Re: Zope2 - pro/contra (Eric Br?hault)
    5. Re: Zope2 - pro/contra (Niels Dettenbach)
    6. Re: Zope2 - pro/contra (FLORAC Thierry)
    7. Re: Zope2 - pro/contra (Andreas Jung)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 11:30:30 +0100
From: Sebastian T?nzer <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Zope] Zope2 - pro/contra
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hello ZOPE community,

we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS.

A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.

My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself.

I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that much better compared to Zope?

Best
Sebastian


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 12:35:20 +0100
From: Niels Dettenbach <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope2 - pro/contra
Message-ID: <3610778.ERn4zx68Ni@gongo>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Am Mittwoch, 4. M?rz 2015, 11:30:30 schrieb Sebastian T?nzer:

> A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual
> comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated",
> "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.
This is "stuff" typically spreaden by guys who don't know what Zope really is
nor was and has (from my view) two reasons:

1.) The Zope project byself made very bad decisions within their communication
strategy in the past - i.e. announcing a "Zope3" (for which many was waiting
for) which did never come out and shoulnt be backward compatible to Zope2.

2.) Several PHP projects (like Typo3 and WP) are miscalled as "CMS" widely and
(in the case of Typo3) from the maintainers byself. PHP is available on many
low cost hosting packages available on the market (even if they are often to
small for a Typo3 site with some more load then a few visitors by day on a few
subpages. So in the view of many web agents and even "developers" anything
apart from PHP is'nt existing or is something "excotically" and/or for
enterprise level.

We had often to deal with any kind of PHP problems in the past where customers
decided to use any PHP "crap" for their business applications. Running PHP on
a pro level is not "easier" then managing Zope installations.


3.) Zope documentation was partly very bad - at least when it comes to
installation and system administration, updating etc.pp.

ZMS had some similiar "problems" which held it back from a very wide presence
- i.e. the long time not public available documentation and the hardly
specialized focus onto medicine in the communication.



just my two cents,


Niels.


--
  ---
  Niels Dettenbach
  Syndicat IT & Internet
  http://www.syndicat.com
  PGP: https://syndicat.com/pub_key.asc
  ---
 

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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 15:14:26 +0330
From: Bahman Movaqar <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope2 - pro/contra
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

That's a good question:

I'm not a Zope developer but I've been hosting several Plone sites
(including my own) for about 5 years now; and I am *extremely* happy
with the stability and security Zope+Plone offers.

Despite a couple of attempts by me, I never could start developing with
Zope. For me, as I have a solid Java background, the complexity was, as
you can clearly see why, not a problem :-)

The main stopper for me was that there were hardly any documents out
there! They were mostly either old or incomplete or didn't exist at all.

PS: Please correct if things have changed...the last time I tried Zope
development was more than 2 years ago.

--
Bahman Movaqar

http://BahmanM.com - https://twitter.com/bahman__m
https://github.com/bahmanm - https://gist.github.com/bahmanm
PGP Key ID: 0x6AB5BD68 (keyserver2.pgp.com)

On 03/04/2015 02:00 PM, Sebastian T?nzer wrote:

> Hello ZOPE community,
>
> we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS.
>
> A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.
>
> My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself.
>
> I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that much better compared to Zope?
>
> Best
> Sebastian
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist  -  [hidden email]
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> **   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
> (Related lists -
>  https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>  https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>


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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 13:42:13 +0100
From: Eric Br?hault <[hidden email]>
To: Sebastian T?nzer <[hidden email]>
Cc: Zope Users <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope2 - pro/contra
Message-ID:
        <CAGMLr==aRz1A79UtF6Z5Ae-GraKgKS+OPh=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hello Sebastian,

I guess the main problem is the future maintenance of Zope.
For instance, it is pretty sure that nobody will invest the time needed to
move it Python 3, and at some point it will probably be a problem.

Eric

On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Sebastian T?nzer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello ZOPE community,
>
> we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com)
> for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say,
> Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the
> years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS.
>
> A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual
> comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated",
> "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.
>
> My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job
> done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big
> competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django
> for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself.
>
> I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no
> reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but
> nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal
> favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for
> new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that
> much better compared to Zope?
>
> Best
> Sebastian
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist  -  [hidden email]
> https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> **   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
> (Related lists -
>  https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>  https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 13:56:48 +0100
From: Niels Dettenbach <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope2 - pro/contra
Message-ID: <5175870.lvNrWFHnp7@gongo>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Am Mittwoch, 4. M?rz 2015, 13:42:13 schrieb Eric Br?hault:
> For instance, it is pretty sure that nobody will invest the time needed to
> move it Python 3, and at some point it will probably be a problem.
This is just another such story which leads to non-interest of Users into Zope
and let me compare to Perl5, where many peoples was looking forward to Perl6
which was targeted to publish somewhere 15 years ago  and perl5 is still
available and maintained today.

Where a demand is - there is a solution and Zope2 / 4 is not the only larger
project still demand on python 2 and btw: afaik at least a part of the
components / modules "used" in (or "provided by") the "Zope" project today are
still ported / running under python3.


just my two cents,


Niels.


--
  ---
  Niels Dettenbach
  Syndicat IT & Internet
  http://www.syndicat.com
  PGP: https://syndicat.com/pub_key.asc
  ---
 



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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 12:29:56 +0000
From: FLORAC Thierry <[hidden email]>
To: Sebastian T?nzer <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope2 - pro/contra
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi,

I'm currently maintaining applications using Zope2, Zope3/Bluebream and Pyramid applications (using ZODB).
I don't have any problem on any of them, even on the oldest Zope2 applications which are more than 10 years old but always need zero maintenance and are as stable as mountains.

But I have to say that Zope2 looks quite old now, and TTW development for example have (from my own point of view) many drawbacks.
So for my own needs I wouldn't start a new project using Zope2 but would use Pyramid + ZODB which is a really good stack; Pyramid is well documented and really pleasant to use, and you can reuse many principles that were introduced by Zope, but the framework was cleaned and reduced to the really usefull parts (while many optional ones are available as add-ons packages).

Regards,
Thierry

________________________________________
De : Zope <[hidden email]> de la part de Sebastian T?nzer <[hidden email]>
Envoy? : mercredi 4 mars 2015 11:30
? : [hidden email]
Objet : [Zope] Zope2 - pro/contra

Hello ZOPE community,

we're still developing websites using Zope2 + ZMS3 (www.zms-publishing.com) for years now and never ran into any real problems (compared to, let's say, Wordpress, typo3, Drupal etc. which had serious security problems over the years) and our clients are quite happy with ZMS.

A few days ago on a barcamp the discussion lead to Zope and the usual comments, i.e. "Zope is dead", "I would not use that", "Too complicated", "Too old", "Outdated",.... and so on.

My personal opinion is, that Zope2 is still rock-solid and gets the job done. I've never heard of any serious issues compared to the big competitors from the PHP or Java world. I looked into Pyramid and Django for different projects and always came back to Zope2 itself.

I did not ask that question for quite some time now as there was no reason. Sure, sometimes we get comments like "never heard of it" etc., but nothing serious. Still, are there any specific reasons (beside personal favors) not to use Zope2 anymore? Any reason not to use Zope2 + ZODB for new projects? Are other frameworks like flask, Django, pyramid etc. that much better compared to Zope?

Best
Sebastian
_______________________________________________
Zope maillist  -  [hidden email]
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists -
  https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
  https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:42:21 +0100
From: Andreas Jung <[hidden email]>
To: Eric Br?hault <[hidden email]>
Cc: Zope Users <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope2 - pro/contra
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Eric Br?hault wrote:
> Hello Sebastian,
>
> I guess the main problem is the future maintenance of Zope. For
> instance, it is pretty sure that nobody will invest the time needed
> to move it Python 3, and at some point it will probably be a
> problem.

The Zope development is almost dead and there only a few people
keeping it alive in terms of security maintenance etc. It would be
unhonest to compare Zope technology with a zombie but Zope was great
technology, mistakes had been made and all technology turns at some
point into legacy mode. Some part of the ZCA are still great and while
other parts of the ZCA should be considered as an architectural software
fail. The ZODB is still great and must not hide behind
so-called "NOSQL" technology  - the ZODB as NOSQL ten years ago and it
still superb in some way.

Personally I don't see Zope on Python 3 happen at any time soon, I don't
see Plone X running on Python 3 at any time soon..it's all legacy and
we have to live with that. For new projects it is time to move on and
learn from the good and parts of the Zope world in order to create
something better.

Cheers
- -aj
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------------------------------

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------------------------------

End of Zope Digest, Vol 125, Issue 1
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