Changing LinguaPlone default behaviour

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Changing LinguaPlone default behaviour

El Chupacabra-2
Hi all! Well, as far as I can tell the standard behaviour of linguaplone
doesn't fit my needs. I want a default language fallback mechanism. I
mean that if I have a translated version of an item I want it to appear,
but when not available I want a default item to show. One can wonder why
I don't use neutral language content for default items and translate it
when needed. The fact is I find very annoying and confusing having both
neutral and language specific content at the same time, that's the right
behaviour but it's not the one I want. I'm aware the LinguaPlone project
won't change this.
I'm looking for the way linguaplone changes plone behaviour of showing
all content available to showing only the neutral contents and the
contents translated to the current language. I think it should be an
object retrieval issue and perhaps not very difficult to tune to one's
needs. Can anybody enlighten me where to find this?
If anyone has solved this issue with other approach please let me know.
I guess many people need a setup alike, I like to know how do you do.
Thanks in advance.


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Re: Changing LinguaPlone default behaviour

J M Cerqueira Esteves
Fernando de los Ríos wrote:
> I'm looking for the way linguaplone changes plone behaviour of showing
> all content available to showing only the neutral contents and the
> contents translated to the current language. I think it should be an
> object retrieval issue and perhaps not very difficult to tune to one's
> needs.

I'd be interested in recommendations on the best way to perform such
customizing, too. In a single folder, one can tag an object as
language-neutral when in fact it is not (just because it has no
translations and one wants it to show up), but even this ugly trick
doesn't solve the problem when the parent folder has been translated,
since the pseudo-neutral object can only show up in its container folder.

For several listings (news, events) and perhaps even the navigation tree
it is frequently desirable to have something like:

For a two-language site:  listing all objects which:
- are in the current language OR
- are language-neutral OR
- are in the other language, without translation in the current
  language.

For a N-language site with N > 2: listing all objects which:
- are in the current language OR
- are language-neutral OR
- have no translation in the current language, choosing
  among the object's languages according to some
  predefined priority (site-wide? local to the folder?
  object-specific? user-defined?).

(I believe I understand the reasons for the choices in LinguaPlone, but
sometimes it's quite hard not having true fallback --- a common example
of incomplete translation but local interest in 'seeing it all listed
together' is that of university and lab sites with content in English
and another, local, language, when many of the local readers are able to
read English.)

Best regards
                             J Esteves

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Re: Changing LinguaPlone default behaviour

Raphael Ritz
J M Cerqueira Esteves schrieb:
[..]
> (I believe I understand the reasons for the choices in LinguaPlone, but
> sometimes it's quite hard not having true fallback --- a common example
> of incomplete translation but local interest in 'seeing it all listed
> together' is that of university and lab sites with content in English
> and another, local, language, when many of the local readers are able to
> read English.)

Or my favorite: ;-)

A "bibliography-folder-like" item (e.g., a list of publications
with a translatable introduction) where the contained bibliographic
references are all language neutral but the "folder" should be
translatable ...

But I've brought this up more than once.
So I shut up again.

Raphael

>
> Best regards
>                              J Esteves
>


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Re: Changing LinguaPlone default behaviour

Alexander Limi
Administrator
In reply to this post by J M Cerqueira Esteves
On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:53:25 -0700, J M Cerqueira Esteves  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Fernando de los Ríos wrote:
>> I'm looking for the way linguaplone changes plone behaviour of showing
>> all content available to showing only the neutral contents and the
>> contents translated to the current language. I think it should be an
>> object retrieval issue and perhaps not very difficult to tune to one's
>> needs.
>
> I'd be interested in recommendations on the best way to perform such
> customizing, too. In a single folder, one can tag an object as
> language-neutral when in fact it is not (just because it has no
> translations and one wants it to show up), but even this ugly trick
> doesn't solve the problem when the parent folder has been translated,
> since the pseudo-neutral object can only show up in its container folder.

LinguaPlone was not designed for these uses, and you'd have to find  
another way of doing this. LinguaPlone is designed to fully or partially  
translate sites, not to mix languages or have arbitrary fallback rules for  
content.

Customizing LinguaPlone to do this is most likely equivalent to trying to  
fit a square peg into a round hole.

(Please don't take this as negativity, it's not meant as such - I'm just  
saying that you're trying to use LinguaPlone for something it has not been  
designed to do :)

--
_____________________________________________________________________

      Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway

  Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
_____________________________________________________________________

       Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content
   Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone
 


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Re: Changing LinguaPlone default behaviour

Peter Hygren
2006/9/15, Alexander Limi <[hidden email]>:
On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:53:25 -0700, J M Cerqueira Esteves
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Fernando de los Ríos wrote:
>> I'm looking for the way linguaplone changes plone behaviour of showing
>> all content available to showing only the neutral contents and the
>> contents translated to the current language. I think it should be an
>> object retrieval issue and perhaps not very difficult to tune to one's
>> needs.
>
> I'd be interested in recommendations on the best way to perform such
> customizing, too. In a single folder, one can tag an object as
> language-neutral when in fact it is not (just because it has no
> translations and one wants it to show up), but even this ugly trick
> doesn't solve the problem when the parent folder has been translated,
> since the pseudo-neutral object can only show up in its container folder.

LinguaPlone was not designed for these uses, and you'd have to find
another way of doing this. LinguaPlone is designed to fully or partially
translate sites, not to mix languages or have arbitrary fallback rules for
content.

Customizing LinguaPlone to do this is most likely equivalent to trying to
fit a square peg into a round hole.

(Please don't take this as negativity, it's not meant as such - I'm just
saying that you're trying to use LinguaPlone for something it has not been
designed to do :)

--
_____________________________________________________________________

      Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway

I've been on the lookout for a plone product with above mentioned functionality for some time; and it certainly seems I am not alone. Is there any product or script etc. written for plone that uses this language fallback mechanism? I do not have the skills in python/zope/plone to build it myself, well, not yet anyway.
--
With Best Regards,
Peter Hygren
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Re: Changing LinguaPlone default behaviour

J M Cerqueira Esteves
In reply to this post by Alexander Limi
Alexander Limi wrote:

> just saying that you're trying to use LinguaPlone for something it has
> not been designed to do  :)

Yes, that already seemed clear :)

But for a few sites we're currently deploying (and lacking
time/resources to prepare a full alternative where fallback would be
more natural) changing a few content listing interfaces to also show
'content which has not been translated to the current language' still
seems a "lesser evil" (even if it ends up requiring ugly internal hacks)
when compared to the trick of faking language-neutrality in
multiple-language folders (such as i18nfolder): people editing content
will still be able to take advantage of LP, simply learning how to
manage content in the "LinguaPlone way" without a kludgy additional rule
like "remember to leave untranslated documents as language-neutral!".

In any case, even genuine language-neutral objects, although not
rejected by the "LinguaPlone way", seem a bit hard to fully reconcile
with it: a hack similar to the one I intended for fallback seems
necessary to properly support language-neutral objects contained in
non-language-neutral folders, making them visible in navigation trees
and (public) folder content listings under all translations of their
container folder [1].  This may well be expected by end users/readers
(even if, for consistency with the "LP way", and lacking something like
a symbolic link, the object is only seen in a single 'real' place when
using content admin listings/webdav/ftp).

Best regards
                         J Esteves

[1] Not trouble-free of course: one immediately has to face the
possibility of annoying id collisions with objects in the other,
translated, folders, so the nav link could not in general point to a
"ghost object" with a similar id in the other folder; it would have
instead to point to the 'real' language-neutral object in its original
container folder, whatever its language.  And so on.  Nasty stuff...

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Re: Changing LinguaPlone default behaviour

Alexander Limi
Administrator
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 04:10:44 -0700, J M Cerqueira Esteves  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> [1] Not trouble-free of course: one immediately has to face the
> possibility of annoying id collisions with objects in the other,
> translated, folders, so the nav link could not in general point to a
> "ghost object" with a similar id in the other folder; it would have
> instead to point to the 'real' language-neutral object in its original
> container folder, whatever its language.  And so on.  Nasty stuff...

There's a reason language fallback isn't an option for production web  
sites. And don't get me started on the scaling issues when you start  
searching, querying the catalog etc in multiple fallback languages…

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_____________________________________________________________________

      Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway

  Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
_____________________________________________________________________

       Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content
   Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone
 


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Re: Changing LinguaPlone default behaviour

El Chupacabra-2
Can you suggest any way to maintain a multilingual portal without having
to translate content to every language available? Many times I have some
translations but not all and this fact leads to missing contents.
One more question, what's the default language setting for?
I'm very sorry to bother you, I really appreciate you work.
Thank you!

Alexander Limi escribió:

> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 04:10:44 -0700, J M Cerqueira Esteves  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> [1] Not trouble-free of course: one immediately has to face the
>> possibility of annoying id collisions with objects in the other,
>> translated, folders, so the nav link could not in general point to a
>> "ghost object" with a similar id in the other folder; it would have
>> instead to point to the 'real' language-neutral object in its original
>> container folder, whatever its language.  And so on.  Nasty stuff...
>
> There's a reason language fallback isn't an option for production web  
> sites. And don't get me started on the scaling issues when you start  
> searching, querying the catalog etc in multiple fallback languages…
>


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Re: Changing LinguaPlone default behaviour

Alexander Limi
Administrator
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 06:47:23 -0700, Fernando de los Ríos  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Can you suggest any way to maintain a multilingual portal without having
> to translate content to every language available? Many times I have some
> translations but not all and this fact leads to missing contents.

Create normal objects, assign the correct language in the Properties tab,  
create references to the translations in the Edit screen.

> One more question, what's the default language setting for?

For specifying the default language selected if the browser does not  
supply one of the languages you have defined as being available on your  
site.

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      Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway

  Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
_____________________________________________________________________

       Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content
   Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone
 


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